This is silly. People love the existing flags that follow the rules Kaye described, such as Chicago or DC or New Mexico or the UK, or most importantly, the US itself. And the flags that are described as all identical aren't identical at all. They're simple to draw and likely to appear in diverse ways on lots of things, from stationary to t-shirts to websites.
Weird take! The graphic of flags that supposedly look the same contains... a lot of flags that look very different. Some of them are especially striking, such as Tulsa, OK or Newtown, KS.
Let's talk about states, which have a greater need for distinct flags than cities. My home state of Minnesota recently changed its flag from a seal on a dark blue background (legitimately indistinguishable from almost twenty other states and so unremarked upon it was often flown upside down) to a more striking and simple design. It has been controversial but when we were invaded and occupied by the Trump administration's goons earlier this year it instantly became a symbol of resistance. People rallied around it, which is what a good flag should do. Would never have occurred with the older flag.
Totally agreed — I'm also from Minnesota and have come to really love the new flag. I was a big fan of the [North Star flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Minnesota#The_North_Star_Flag) and was kind of sad when the new flag was unveiled (especially because of how well the Duluth flag goes with the North Star one), but since then, I've come to really, really like it. Something about it just feels… right, and like home. And you're right about how inspiring it was when the flag became a symbol of unity in January. I think that, given enough time, people will (hopefully) realize just how much better the new flag is, by pretty much every metric, than the old one. (I wonder if it'll end up like a mini version of the Canadian flag ordeal; maybe eventually everyone will be so onboard with it that it seems silly that there was even a divide before.)
Also, I just graduated from Notre Dame a couple weeks ago, and I feel like I should mention the South Bend flag, since it's explicitly called out in the article too. People all over South Bend seem to love the flag — it's on murals, flown in yards across town, and seems to be generally really well-regarded. I'd recognize it anywhere, which is a pretty awesome thing for a small city of, like, 100,000 people. It's honestly super cool.
Ok, last thing: I just saw the Madison, WI flag in that 25-nicest-flags graphic and thought "man, they should have done something with the isthmus" — and then I realized the white stripe *is* the isthmus, and the little thing in the middle is the Wisconsin capitol! How cool is that. There are certainly some meh flags in the bunch, but overall, I couldn't disagree more with the "one flag drawn twenty ways" statement.
This applies to all kinds of logos and also websites and other design. Somehow it’s easy to convince people that a simple (vapid) design is better, and admitting to liking something more complicated is something you should be ashamed of?
"One flag drawn twenty ways," followed by an image of twenty extremely distinct flags. Comical. Look at the various flags of the countries of the world. Much more "similar" and yet they've been successfully flying on ships and flagpoles to denote origin and ownership from afar in all weather, and taken up and remixed into all sorts of nationalistic branding. I'm not a vexillology person and this still rings an extraordinarily silly take.
Yes, this is total rubbish. Those are twenty extremely different flags. There's maybe *slightly* too much emphasis on suns, I admit; but they are highly distinguishable in general.
The heart of Roman Mars's interest in improving city flags isn't about a cult of flag nerds who hang out on Reddit. He says, "The best part about municipal flags is that we own them. They are an open-source, publicly owned design language of the community. When they are done well, they are remixable, adaptable, and they are powerful. We could control the branding and graphical imagery of our cities with a good flag, but instead, by having bad flags we don't use, we cede that territory to sports teams and chambers of commerce and tourism boards."
In Washington DC, riffs on the DC flag are everywhere, three of something over two bar-like elements, especially as a way to highlight DC-the-city as opposed to DC-as-seat-of-the-federal-government. Someone even collects them here: https://dcadapters.omeka.net The same sort of civic pride through a repurposed flag is all over the place in Chicago.
Chicago and DC have the advantage that their flags have been around for decades, quietly following Kaye's rules. So the real test of these new flags will be to see whether, over the coming decade or so, their graphic elements start to permeate their communities and suddenly you can't not see the flag everywhere.
Counterpoint: the problem is modern designs that they recycle the same ideas. If you look at something like the English county flags they're universally praised, do feel distinctive and meet the design goals.
In the same vein, Japanese local flags are also quite distinctive and striking, despite their simplicity.
The main problem with American local flags really is the lack of meaningful symbols. Where locally meaningful symbols exist, they are usually trademarked by the local sports team. That's why you get the same stars and abstracted land forms everywhere.
I used to design highly refined logos and brand identities much like these new flags.
The flags are technically well done. Many, if not most older flags are not great. Legibility, contrast, visibility are problems.
What’s clear here is new ones lack inspiration. There is no mystery or meaning, no story. The graphic design equivalent of political correctness. Flags designed through consensus by redditors possessed by a design ideology. Thuggees indeed.
Fascinating observations that brings "refinement culture" from the realm of consumer goods, which many of us buy in a vain attempt to find meaning, into the realm of flags, which should be expressions of meaning already-found. This is 1 of 2 un-spoken, unexplored issues here, and by far the hardest to address. An alienated people in a hyper-individualized (and thus hyper-conformist) society can have no corporate meaning. Thus we should not be surprised at their inability to make anything corporately (or even singly) that conveys meaning, delight, a sense of belonging.
I would suggest for design in all things, Kaye's five principles be enhanced with Christopher Alexander's 15 principles laid out in "The Nature of Order," starting with his profound observation that all creative work, to be meaningful, cannot be an expression of one's ego, nor or the image sold collectively by professionals in a craft, but rather an honest effort made to tap into our true selves—one that is ever-connected with the Self who is the the Ground upon which all good structure is built, the Light that shines forth in varying degrees through all our good works. This is the hardest work of all: one that involves degrees of death and life, and few are brave enough to engage it, certainly one would be foolish to do so alone. But the consequences that arise from ego-death, your ability to simply make One Good Thing, are quite literally cosmos-shaping.
The Way of Ego-Death cleanses us to become "lost" in a life-giving way as we work. Only then can our finished-yet-imperfect product create some wholeness, can produce wholeness in us, the sub-creator, can bring about a bit of wholeness in those who observe and use it.
This is a deep truth that affects falling in love, marriage, and parenting (neither finding a spouse, nor raising kids in our image/ego), in addition to truly satisfying the other creative and procreative voices calling from within us to make homes, gardens, schools, meals, classes, computers, codes, substack posts, etc.
This is silly. People love the existing flags that follow the rules Kaye described, such as Chicago or DC or New Mexico or the UK, or most importantly, the US itself. And the flags that are described as all identical aren't identical at all. They're simple to draw and likely to appear in diverse ways on lots of things, from stationary to t-shirts to websites.
Weird take! The graphic of flags that supposedly look the same contains... a lot of flags that look very different. Some of them are especially striking, such as Tulsa, OK or Newtown, KS.
Let's talk about states, which have a greater need for distinct flags than cities. My home state of Minnesota recently changed its flag from a seal on a dark blue background (legitimately indistinguishable from almost twenty other states and so unremarked upon it was often flown upside down) to a more striking and simple design. It has been controversial but when we were invaded and occupied by the Trump administration's goons earlier this year it instantly became a symbol of resistance. People rallied around it, which is what a good flag should do. Would never have occurred with the older flag.
Totally agreed — I'm also from Minnesota and have come to really love the new flag. I was a big fan of the [North Star flag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Minnesota#The_North_Star_Flag) and was kind of sad when the new flag was unveiled (especially because of how well the Duluth flag goes with the North Star one), but since then, I've come to really, really like it. Something about it just feels… right, and like home. And you're right about how inspiring it was when the flag became a symbol of unity in January. I think that, given enough time, people will (hopefully) realize just how much better the new flag is, by pretty much every metric, than the old one. (I wonder if it'll end up like a mini version of the Canadian flag ordeal; maybe eventually everyone will be so onboard with it that it seems silly that there was even a divide before.)
Also, I just graduated from Notre Dame a couple weeks ago, and I feel like I should mention the South Bend flag, since it's explicitly called out in the article too. People all over South Bend seem to love the flag — it's on murals, flown in yards across town, and seems to be generally really well-regarded. I'd recognize it anywhere, which is a pretty awesome thing for a small city of, like, 100,000 people. It's honestly super cool.
Ok, last thing: I just saw the Madison, WI flag in that 25-nicest-flags graphic and thought "man, they should have done something with the isthmus" — and then I realized the white stripe *is* the isthmus, and the little thing in the middle is the Wisconsin capitol! How cool is that. There are certainly some meh flags in the bunch, but overall, I couldn't disagree more with the "one flag drawn twenty ways" statement.
This applies to all kinds of logos and also websites and other design. Somehow it’s easy to convince people that a simple (vapid) design is better, and admitting to liking something more complicated is something you should be ashamed of?
"One flag drawn twenty ways," followed by an image of twenty extremely distinct flags. Comical. Look at the various flags of the countries of the world. Much more "similar" and yet they've been successfully flying on ships and flagpoles to denote origin and ownership from afar in all weather, and taken up and remixed into all sorts of nationalistic branding. I'm not a vexillology person and this still rings an extraordinarily silly take.
Yes, this is total rubbish. Those are twenty extremely different flags. There's maybe *slightly* too much emphasis on suns, I admit; but they are highly distinguishable in general.
The heart of Roman Mars's interest in improving city flags isn't about a cult of flag nerds who hang out on Reddit. He says, "The best part about municipal flags is that we own them. They are an open-source, publicly owned design language of the community. When they are done well, they are remixable, adaptable, and they are powerful. We could control the branding and graphical imagery of our cities with a good flag, but instead, by having bad flags we don't use, we cede that territory to sports teams and chambers of commerce and tourism boards."
In Washington DC, riffs on the DC flag are everywhere, three of something over two bar-like elements, especially as a way to highlight DC-the-city as opposed to DC-as-seat-of-the-federal-government. Someone even collects them here: https://dcadapters.omeka.net The same sort of civic pride through a repurposed flag is all over the place in Chicago.
Chicago and DC have the advantage that their flags have been around for decades, quietly following Kaye's rules. So the real test of these new flags will be to see whether, over the coming decade or so, their graphic elements start to permeate their communities and suddenly you can't not see the flag everywhere.
> Meanwhile the sunrise spread across the city on its own, on t-shirts and stickers and bike frames and beer cans, with no legal standing at all.
Doesn't this mean that it clearly is a much better design, as it is actually used in the world? I think this is the most important test for a flag.
Counterpoint: the problem is modern designs that they recycle the same ideas. If you look at something like the English county flags they're universally praised, do feel distinctive and meet the design goals.
https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/s/Ch3Nv1ylK7
In the same vein, Japanese local flags are also quite distinctive and striking, despite their simplicity.
The main problem with American local flags really is the lack of meaningful symbols. Where locally meaningful symbols exist, they are usually trademarked by the local sports team. That's why you get the same stars and abstracted land forms everywhere.
There is not *a* flag on Milwaukee's flag, there are eight flags. Three with designs and five symbols of flags.
Thugee’s was a mega caravan stop on the original Silk Road. Went out of business when religious Hindus protested their beef jerky franchise.
ill never forgive what reddit vexillologists did to waco
I used to design highly refined logos and brand identities much like these new flags.
The flags are technically well done. Many, if not most older flags are not great. Legibility, contrast, visibility are problems.
What’s clear here is new ones lack inspiration. There is no mystery or meaning, no story. The graphic design equivalent of political correctness. Flags designed through consensus by redditors possessed by a design ideology. Thuggees indeed.
Alegria for Vexillology
Fascinating observations that brings "refinement culture" from the realm of consumer goods, which many of us buy in a vain attempt to find meaning, into the realm of flags, which should be expressions of meaning already-found. This is 1 of 2 un-spoken, unexplored issues here, and by far the hardest to address. An alienated people in a hyper-individualized (and thus hyper-conformist) society can have no corporate meaning. Thus we should not be surprised at their inability to make anything corporately (or even singly) that conveys meaning, delight, a sense of belonging.
I would suggest for design in all things, Kaye's five principles be enhanced with Christopher Alexander's 15 principles laid out in "The Nature of Order," starting with his profound observation that all creative work, to be meaningful, cannot be an expression of one's ego, nor or the image sold collectively by professionals in a craft, but rather an honest effort made to tap into our true selves—one that is ever-connected with the Self who is the the Ground upon which all good structure is built, the Light that shines forth in varying degrees through all our good works. This is the hardest work of all: one that involves degrees of death and life, and few are brave enough to engage it, certainly one would be foolish to do so alone. But the consequences that arise from ego-death, your ability to simply make One Good Thing, are quite literally cosmos-shaping.
The Way of Ego-Death cleanses us to become "lost" in a life-giving way as we work. Only then can our finished-yet-imperfect product create some wholeness, can produce wholeness in us, the sub-creator, can bring about a bit of wholeness in those who observe and use it.
This is a deep truth that affects falling in love, marriage, and parenting (neither finding a spouse, nor raising kids in our image/ego), in addition to truly satisfying the other creative and procreative voices calling from within us to make homes, gardens, schools, meals, classes, computers, codes, substack posts, etc.
Being from Milwaukee I just knew our city's awful flag would come up.